Posts by eyes wide shut

57

New Awake - JWs are Great!

by brotherdan in

this box appears in the new awake.. how can they say they have no clergy class?

what is the governing body?

how can they say they take no money collections at kingdom halls when the contribution boxes are very visible and we are reminded to give?

eyes wide shut

They believe that there is one true God whose name is Jehovah.

Half truth in comparing others. Most Christians believe that God has a name, as in a personal pronoun but His name is not confined to a personal pronoun. Most Christians understand God's name to be more than just a personal pronoun, JW's do not.

They do not believe that Jesus is God or believe in the Trinity.

Very different. I think that is why most people that leave the Watchtower are so damaged by this teaching that they can never go any where else. But again to reiterate, being different and unique does not mean it is right.

They follow the teachings of Jesus and honour him as Son.

Simply untrue. Very little honour is given to Jesus. In fact they claim he is dead and Michael the Archangel now rules in heaven. I think this was added in here to pull people in to their ways and them knowing that most people can connect to Jesus. But once a JW very little emphasis is placed on Jesus and no JW has a personal relationship with him.

They do not venerate the cross or use idols in their worship.

They are implying that veneration of the cross is wrong. And they cleverly put idols in the sentence which would imply that a statue in a church is an idol hence idolatry. Just because a statue is in a church does not mean people worship it, nor do the fall down and worship a few sticks put together in the shape of a cross either.

They do not believe in a fiery hell where all bad people go after death.

They will when they get there someday. In the meantime they preach annihilation and a re creation process. Not biblical at all. Another barrier for those that were witnesses. Most can't get past the annihilation at death teaching. This is the same as what as Atheist believes.

They believe the kingdom is an earthly paradise

Most Christians believe in a bodily resurrection and a new heaven and new earth but do not confine it like the Watchtower Corp. does.

57

New Awake - JWs are Great!

by brotherdan in

this box appears in the new awake.. how can they say they have no clergy class?

what is the governing body?

how can they say they take no money collections at kingdom halls when the contribution boxes are very visible and we are reminded to give?

eyes wide shut

This article inferrs an assumption that change or being unique is a good thing, that being mainstream is not or is wrong. In most cases being unusual with doctrine or practice should pose a red flag to someone. The statement, "many people are amazed", also inferrs an assumption that many people are not liking what is out there and want something different and being amazed can mean content to know. All these inferred assumptions are wrong.

They have no clergy class.

There is nothing wrong with a clergy class. In fact the clergy do not lord over the people telling them what to do, such as the elders and men in brooklyn do.

Their teachers are unsalaried.

Who cares. It does not matter. If a religion chooses to pay the minister it should be fine. It shows they care for their own.

They niether tithe or take up collection plates at their places of worship.

This inferrs that being a Jw is going to be cheap and giving money to them is not a obligatory thing. The fact of the matter is someone going to a church needs to pay at some point in time whether a collection is passed around or boxes are put to the back it doesn't matter. To point this out is just plain stupid. HOW the money comes into a religous group is inconsequential as long as it is voluntary. I think most churches have voluntary donations.

They remain nuetral to politics

Not true. The Watchtower does not use active political measures to change things but they use what is called passive resistance to change politics. Much like the ACLU is an organisation that uses only lawsuits to make new laws or destroy old ones the WTBS use lawsuits to effect change in any system or country. If they were truly neutral they would not use lawsuits or the court systems to get their way.

They advocate peace and do not participate in warfare.

They are inferring here that other religous groups are not for peace. All mainstream Christians promote peace and do not wish war on any nation. The problem with rejecting war outright is that at times it is necessary to defend agaisnt evil. The WT does not understand this. By making this statement any crazy loonatic would just be able to run rampant all over the world and people would just let it happen. I suppose to a JW to not fight Hitler was something God would have wanted rather than combat his evil plans. Their logic here is not sound. War and the participation in war is a necessary evil.

They are Globally united in their bible based beliefs.

So is a lot of other religions. I don't see any difference here.

They have no social ethnic or racial divisions...

In any kingdom hall you have divisions of peoples. It may not be blatant but it is there. All sinful humans have these tendencies. Jw's are no different. If the are inferring in a theological sense then that is true they do not teach otherwise but neither does most Christians.

They are not affiliated with any other religion whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.

Untrue. Jehovah's Witnesses are Protestant. The whole idea behind there church is to deny the authority of the Catholic church and set themselves up as the one true religion. In doing so the protest what the Catholic church claims. But in reality they are also known by apologists to be classed as Restorationists.

106

Sola Scriptura

by dieselman in

in response to yknot *** please note the wts doesn't believe in sola scriptura (bible understood alone by individuals), if you are 'lurker' and want to refute this fact, please start a new thread or feel free to pm me ...... (reproof will be accepted if you can show me my error of understanding on the matter).

in the words of the ethiopian "how can i," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?

" so he invited philip to come up and sit with him.

eyes wide shut

Deputy Dog,

Only have time for a short reply,

They, (the GB), not me, or you say that they rely on only the Bible to point to them as the authority. I don't agree with their belief. I believe in yours.

I was only making a statement based on the principle of how THEY believe, not how I believe. It helps to gain ground on the question at hand.

They opening thread asks if the GB believe in Sola Scriptura.

The answer is a fallacy based on the common definition of Sola Scriptura.

THEY believe that Sola Scriptura points only to them. That the Bible was meant for everyone but only through them. That's a fallacy based on the standard definition.

I don't believe this and I don't think you do either. I was just trying to answer the question in its context not debate my beliefs or anyone elses.

For my beliefs I don't believe in the WTBTS nor in the Protestant concept of Sola Scriptura. But I think that is irralevant for this thread. I also don't believe the WTBTS believes in Sola Scriptura.

I don't know what other definition there is for SS, but I would like to hear other views.

106

Sola Scriptura

by dieselman in

in response to yknot *** please note the wts doesn't believe in sola scriptura (bible understood alone by individuals), if you are 'lurker' and want to refute this fact, please start a new thread or feel free to pm me ...... (reproof will be accepted if you can show me my error of understanding on the matter).

in the words of the ethiopian "how can i," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?

" so he invited philip to come up and sit with him.

eyes wide shut

Dieselman,

What is your definition of Sola Scriptura?

106

Sola Scriptura

by dieselman in

in response to yknot *** please note the wts doesn't believe in sola scriptura (bible understood alone by individuals), if you are 'lurker' and want to refute this fact, please start a new thread or feel free to pm me ...... (reproof will be accepted if you can show me my error of understanding on the matter).

in the words of the ethiopian "how can i," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?

" so he invited philip to come up and sit with him.

eyes wide shut

Very nice response eyes wide shut, and thank you for sticking to the topic. Of course that is a subjective opinion. Its entire premise is based on if you are indeed correct, and presupposes that your opinion is fact, which it is not, it is only your opinion, and the opinion of the source you quote. Nevertheless, I'm glad to see that at least somebody is getting the point. Almost.

No that is not a subjective opinion.

Those definitions for Sola Scriptura and Traditions, in relating to church Tradition, is founded in centuries of use throughout the world By billions of people.

I know of no other definition for Sola Scriptura or Tradition. If there is it would be insignificant in comparison.

Definitions are defined by society at large and are given meaning through consensus and agreement.

Maybe you know something more than Martin Luther did on Sola Scriptura?

In a sentence can you give me your definition of Sola Scriptura? Clearly defined. Because if no one here has a basis to go on the answer will never given.

It will help you and everyone else.

If none of us know what your animal looks like how are we to argue what is is suppose to do or not do.

106

Sola Scriptura

by dieselman in

in response to yknot *** please note the wts doesn't believe in sola scriptura (bible understood alone by individuals), if you are 'lurker' and want to refute this fact, please start a new thread or feel free to pm me ...... (reproof will be accepted if you can show me my error of understanding on the matter).

in the words of the ethiopian "how can i," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?

" so he invited philip to come up and sit with him.

eyes wide shut

The way the WT skirts around the Protestant tradition (no pun intended), of Sola Scriptura is they understandably view the Bible for everyone in which someone is chosen to become the authority. Therefore the Bible was written for everyone but only one person or Organisation will be given authority to make the readings known to the masses.

They had to make themselves in some way the authority. They realized that the Catholic church, for example was the original and oldest and that her authority stood on Tradition, Apostolic succession. They needed a way to mock this and create an authority. They also wanted more control than the Protestants. They wanted to stand out and be different. Thoughts of mine, not asking to agree or disagree.

So cleverly, I think they used and twisted some scriptures to create this illusion and so-called power that the Catholic church had.

Yet the JW's don't realize they stand on the same ground as all other religions. And that is how does one identify the basis of truth in the Bible when all others have different interpretations? If, the concept of an authority does exist (which I personally don't), then how does one identify that authority? What then happens is they make that choice and they are trapped, or as Don Cameron entitled his book, they are, Captives of a Concept.

However, that is another tangent.

Still a fallacy!

106

Sola Scriptura

by dieselman in

in response to yknot *** please note the wts doesn't believe in sola scriptura (bible understood alone by individuals), if you are 'lurker' and want to refute this fact, please start a new thread or feel free to pm me ...... (reproof will be accepted if you can show me my error of understanding on the matter).

in the words of the ethiopian "how can i," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?

" so he invited philip to come up and sit with him.

eyes wide shut

No other source? Are you kidding me. NOT even the NWT says or points to THEM.

This is another perfect example of what I'm trying to say. Nowhere in any Bible or translation of any bible does it EXPLICITLY say that God directed or directs the WTBTS. NONE 0 ZERO ZILTCH I dare any JW to make that statement at the KH. They won't be a JW very long after.

I agree with you. I am making the statement on the principle of Sola Scriptura not on an actual fact.

This whole question is a fallacy and can't be pinned down.

They WT Organisation believes in their own constructed authority in which they solely rely on the Bible. However, they believe that their members must rely on them and that sola scriptura does not apply to the faithful but must resort to something beyond the scriptures and that is them as holding the correct understanding.

Sola Scriptura for them but not for you or others. Fallacy!

The fallacy is if it is Sola Scriptura then it is for everybody not just someone. Someone can't claim Sola Scriptura for themselves otherwise it is something different like tradition or authority. So we are left going round in circles.

Example: CT Russell, the one starting the Org, reasoned he could interpret the scriptures. Therefore, he did not believe in any other authority, or go through for him. Therefore, Sola Scriptura in all its essence.

Later Rutherford began to give the people the idea that one needed the Organisation to understand things. Therefore, not Sola Scriptura, something else, an authority or go between. But that is the fallacy one cannot claim ultimate authority over something that belongs to all in principle or one began in principle.

Its like saying I can have my cake and eat it too. Fallacy!

106

Sola Scriptura

by dieselman in

in response to yknot *** please note the wts doesn't believe in sola scriptura (bible understood alone by individuals), if you are 'lurker' and want to refute this fact, please start a new thread or feel free to pm me ...... (reproof will be accepted if you can show me my error of understanding on the matter).

in the words of the ethiopian "how can i," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?

" so he invited philip to come up and sit with him.

eyes wide shut

To dieselman,

Yes, and No is the answer

Thank you for bringing up this question because I always thought that the WT believes in Sola Scriptura but I think it is a combination of both. Allow me to explain and maybe help breakdown the problem with this. I don't believe in Sola Scriptura so I may bring a different perspective on this.

First off, the correct definiton of Sola Scriptura is:

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the doctrine that the Bible is the only infallible and inerrant authority for Christian faith, and that it contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. ...

Source: Wikepedia

The essence of that definition would mean that the WT believes the Bible is the foundation for its reasoning and authority. There is nothing in the above definition that one would need another person to understand it or not. Some do and some don't. It's not an issue with the definition. We need not cloud the issue here with that. The Bible is claimed as the sole basis for the WT's authority given their interpretation in Mathew on the faithful slave.

On this basis they do believe in Sola Scriptura. In other words no other source points to them as being God directed except the Bible, based on their own interpretation. No tradition, nothing else. They only use the Bible to identify themselves. Therefore, only Sola Scriptura for them.

In contrast to Sola Scriptura:

Q. What is tradition?[pg. 87]
A. The doctrines which the Apostles taught by word of mouth, and which have descended through every successive generation even to our times.

Source: A Doctrinal Catechism, by the Rev. Stephen Keenan, published in 1848 by E. Dunigan & Brother, [James B. Kirker], in New York, No. 371 Broadway, pgs. 86-87.

This is the contrast of Sola Scriptura. The idea is that the Bible alone is not our only authority but that the Apostles handed down Holy Traditions that are included in pure worship. Traditions that are also necessary to understand doctrine, and the Bible, and pure worship.

The WT does not accept this concept. Yet in a twist of things they include themselves to be necessary, as in Holy Tradition, in order to understand the Bible.Therefore on this basis they do not accept Solo Scriptura for the faithful. The only accept this concept only for themselves, as an organisation.

So like usuall the WT uses both concepts twisted up to become an image unto themselves. First they say that they believe only in the Bible and not Traditions and they also say that you must go to them to learn what the Bible has to say. They have set themselves up to be the tradition, and doctrine, without saying it outright.

They become the authority verses the traditions handed down from the apostles, (speaking from a Catholic perspective).

So here is the deal. They believe in Sola Scriptura only on the basis that it points to them. They believe in tradition or some authority that gets handed down to others because the Sola Scriptura only points to them and the faithful must understand them to understand the Bible.

A fallacy!!

While most Protestant churches teach the Sola Scriptura concept, and is in fact the basis for there belief that one can read the Bible on their own and gain knowledge, they don't go beyond this and make themselves to be THE authority to go through in order to get there. Therein lies the difference.

A Protestant church may say they can help you understand the Bible or a person may see truth in there teachings, but they are always free to choose or leave and move elsewhere because most Prostestants don't hold the church to be guiding them only the Holy Sprit and the Bible.

The difference in simple terms is a Protestant looks to the church as an aid to help them understand just like the Ethiopian did with Paul, but don't believe the church is a kiosk needed to go through before things can be understood.

2

From Whom Should We Receive True Bible Teachings today?

by wannabe in

does it not make sense, that the same one who taught the early christian's should be the same one that holds that responsibility to teach them all today?

would it not also be true, that was we to accept the teachings of any religious organization today, we would only be receiving our bible teachings from man, and not from the true source, that taught in the first century?

would not those type of teachings be lacking the holy spirit, hence, worthless to us?

eyes wide shut

The Holy Spirit. You made a beautiful post.

Inspiring for me.

God bless you

30

Dealing with the reality of death. How do you?

by confliction in

jw
friends

since i've come to the realization and conclusion that i've been living a fictional lifestyle for the last 17 years, i've also come to identify with agnosticism.. .

but one issue that's been taking it's emotional toll on me lately is the realization of the fictitious paradisiac earth.. it was the ultimate goal as a witness- the answer to everything.

even if you had questions that couldn't be answered, you were to "wait until the paradise and ask" when you got there.. .

eyes wide shut

PS,

Jehovah's Witnesses don't deal with death very well either. They just think they do. I wonder how watchtowerites would deal with death if they knew that Armageddon would come beyond her lifetime. It doesn't work.

Imagine if you told a witness that Armageddon was coming 1000 years from now. That they have their date waaaaay off. Imagine what would happen if the GB,printing Co., gave them nooo light that the next date would be the year 3010.

They only strive to not die in a fleshly way.

Everything about the JW religion is to survive the body. The whole new Paradise and surviving death is fleshy. It is about gaining fleshly things.

Just look at the pictures and descriptions of what they discribe as God's kingdom.

They believe God's kingdom is about eating and drinking and building houses and having to pet wild animals....

God is beyond this and he has something more in store for mankind than just a friendly zoo with no diseases.

Pray my friend. My heart goes out to you

God bless

Maximos

The truth is beyond this.